We all have a habit of hiding from our deepest truths, but what are we actually escaping when we choose to live in a facade? Coach and author Mike Staver joins host Daniel Weinberg to unpack the psychological barriers behind pretending not to know what is true in our lives and businesses. In this engaging discussion, they explore why successful leaders often rationalize behaviors that do not serve them, the heavy emotional cost of maintaining these personas, and how to start taking genuine personal responsibility. Mike also shares insights from his newly published book, Navigating Crazy: How to Live and Work Sanely in an Insane World, offering practical steps on how to establish solid boundaries and step outside of our comfort zones to build a more authentic life.
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“What Are You Pretending Not To Know?” With Mike Staver
What Are You Pretending Not To Know? The Facade Of Success
On this week’s show, we’ve got Mike Staver, and we’re talking about what you’re pretending not to know. Remember the Men’s Anonymous book that is out now, a USA Today bestseller? You can buy it at all good online bookstores, Amazon.com, or the easiest, Barnes & Noble. Men’s Anonymous.
Mike, so great to have you on the show.
It’s so great to be here. Thank you. As I mentioned in our pre-conversation, I’m such a huge fan of the work you’re doing and the whole thing around the show. I’m really excited to be here.
That’s awesome. Thank you. I appreciate that. Where are you right now?
Scottsdale, Arizona.
Welcome to Scottsdale. You ask people a really fascinating question. When I was reading your works, you said, “What are you pretending not to know?” I want to ask you, where did that come from? How did you get to that?
Some years ago, I was at a seminar. It was one of those self-help seminar things. I was in grad school, and they did this whole thing on pretending, and it was fascinating. I developed the question out of pretending not to know, which helps us create a facade that looks very authentic and looks very real and even admirable in some cases from the outside world. We go through life pretending we do not know what is true, so that we often do not have to deal with it.
It came out of that work, and I developed the what are you pretending not to know thing because, in my experience as a coach, I kept experiencing people who knew what they knew, but I do not want to say alternate reality. They certainly existed in a world that did not consider the thing that they probably knew if they paused long enough to think about it.
I found it’s a really interesting concept from a psychological way the human mind works. What you’re effectively saying is that you know that you tricked your mind into blocking it or pretending that it doesn’t exist, and you basically are living like a construct that you’ve created. It’s really interesting because I happened to have had a few guests recently who are all coming at this particular issue, and they’re coming from different points, different angles as to why, whatever.
I’m really keen to hear what your experience has been, especially in light of your clients that you’ve had, etc. When I go there, what would you say are some of the common things that people pretend not to know? For the audience to really understand what the things are that particularly successful people do, you have a lot of successful clients in your business life. What are some of the common things that they pretend not to know or to block?
I love what you said about how the mind creates a construct. What it then does is give us behavior patterns to engage in that really enforce the pretending. The construct lives inside a behavioral pattern that supports the pretending that does not separate us. By the way, interestingly enough, I think that people also pretend to be positive. They pretend that they aren’t capable, or they pretend they’re talented, or they aren’t able to make a life that they want.
I’m going to suggest it comes from a fear-of-failure angle where you’re like, you’re actually good, but you do not want to put yourself out there because you’re worried, what if I’m not good? People think I’m a failure, so I’m just not going to go there. I’m going to pretend I do not even know how to do it. I do not even have that capability.
I was speaking in Chicago to a group of, I do not know, a couple of hundred executives, and I said, “If you were really courageous, what decision would you make right now? You would think that they were staring into headlights.” It was a courageous decision. What? I can speak between the lines. Some of the things people, I think, pretend they do not know are that they pretend they do not know that their relationship has some challenges in it. They ignore those things. Executives often pretend that their teams are better than they actually are to keep them from having to deal with it.
That’s an interesting one. That I can completely relate to. When you’re playing at that level, I think you want to believe that it’s all good. They’re all good. They’re really talented, and you know deep down inside, some of them are just mediocre. It’s quite uncomfortable to confront and takes quite some effort- short-term pain for long-term gain to actually deal with those things. The emotional dealing with how do I get rid of these people? How do I deal, and dealing with all the fallout? It’s like trying to avoid chaos just to keep everything fine and balanced out.
There’s a cost, isn’t there, Daniel? There’s a cost to not pretending. There is a challenge in reality. I was talking to a client the other day, and we were having a very similar conversation. She said, “This is a really intense session.” Afterwards, about an hour later, she texted me back. She goes, I’m going back to pretending it’s much cozier there.
That’s exactly right. That’s what it is. That is the point.
Pretending isn’t necessarily a negative thing. Sometimes people frame pretending in terms of a dysfunction, or, for instance, if a person has just had a diagnosis of a terminal illness and the doctor has given them a limited amount of time to live. There is science that says that pretending not to know it’s as bad as it is helps them navigate through treatment. In the larger contextual framework, particularly with us as men, there are pressures around us to pretend to be stronger in a difficult situation than we might otherwise feel. There are some elements of the dynamic of being a man, I think, that create a persona that we have to sometimes pretend to be when there is not a lot of room not to pretend. They’re getting lost.
Particularly with us as men, there are pressures around us to pretend to be stronger in a difficult situation than we might otherwise feel. Share on XThat’s true. When you’re advising your really successful private clients, who you’re coaching these executives, when you’re in a room with one of these people, how quickly can you tell when someone already knows the answer but doesn’t want to admit it? You can see it. You’re like, you’re having the conversation. You see what’s going on straight away, but they do not like it. How often can you see it, and they’re not admitting it?
I would say very quickly. My mom, she says it’s a blessing and a curse, but she has a very strong intuitive sense that I think I inherited from her. I’ve built my practice on the principle of the thing behind the thing, to listen to the thing that isn’t being said, but the behavior is manifesting or justifying. I see it very quickly when I have to be very careful.
You give us some things that you like. You must have some pattern recognition that you’ve built up. There are some signs, questions you ask, and whatever. Can you maybe help the listener understand what you’re experiencing, what you see, and what they’re like? Just because I strongly believe from my own anecdotal experience that most people are doing it.
Most people are doing it. I do not know how conscious it is, how aware they are sometimes, or whether they’re just in a default unconscious mode and doing it as some defence, like a mask that they’ve created to protect what they think is protecting them. That’s what most people fall into the trap of. Maybe give us some examples of what you see when you’re in a room having a one-on-one where you’re like, “I can see this.”
Stories We Tell Vs. Reality: Spotting Personal Incongruity
Usually, it’s what the story is that they tell themselves and tell those around them compared to what the data, the facts, the circumstances say. That’s the first thing. I always look at the incongruity between the story they’re telling and the life they’re leading, the story they’re telling and the decisions they’re making in their business. I’m mindful of a client that I have who’s very successful. He continually makes decisions that are bordering on dangerously risky for the business. The story that is created around these decisions is so pristine in its rationalization that you almost find yourself going, “That makes total sense.”
He bullshits himself then. He’s really good at doing that. He actually convinces himself and others around him sometimes of the bullshit.
When somebody gives really clear evidence to the contrary in the boardroom, this person is so good at being able to construct and speak a reality that does not exist except in about ten percent. There’s about a ten percent sliver that is like, that’s true, but all the rest of it is not so true. I observe what they say versus the facts and the story that they tell versus what the lived experience is. The second thing that I do is ask questions like, “What would be true if what you’re saying is not 100% true?”
They generally will say what you just said, “Tell me again,” and then they’ll think about it, and I’ll explain. Let’s just suspend for a moment the idea that the story we are living is true. Let’s just suspend that and pretend that some portion of it, pick a percentage, 10%, 15%, because I do not think anything’s ever 100% true or 100% untrue. Let’s just take 10% or 15% of that and say, what would we have to change in the way we think or the way we behave if 10% of that story were not completely accurate? I do not ever want to forget a professor I had years ago, Dr. Podesky. She was phenomenal.
She said, “Be very careful about stripping away somebody’s denial. It might be the only thing they have.” I’m like, that is a very powerful statement. I will sometimes say, especially if I know that what they’re saying is fraught with danger or a lack of truth. Let’s just pick a percentage and say, what if 10% to 15% of that story isn’t true? What would probably be true in opposition to that particular story? It always leads to a very lengthy, insightful conversation. They always circle back to it, but it is true. Even if it’s not true. Here’s the bigger thing. I’m interested in seeing this in your work.
'Be very careful about stripping away somebody's denial. It might be the only thing they have.' Share on XWhat I see is that when the pretending starts to fade, they have an almost otherworldly hubris about their ability to overcome it anyway. If I’m pretending that this is true and it’s edgy and risky and dangerous financially or physically or whatever, and then the lights start to come up a little bit, and the truth starts to be revealed, I would say the majority of the time with my clients, particularly my highly successful clients, and if it is true, what we’re talking about, I can overcome it anyway. I’ve overcome so many things in my life that if that’s true, I’m not sure that that’s such a big deal to me.
Isn’t that interesting? I do find that interesting. They think that even when they stop pretending and the truth gets revealed, that’s something that they feel like the pretending they did to defend their position, now at the opposite end of it, they’re dealing with the truth and the unreal.
That’s right.
That feels like it’s a bit American psycho, to be honest, that they’re able to do that. It’s fascinating.
If you look at it like insane entrepreneurs, look at Bezos or Jobs or the guy that owns Virgin, Branson, if you look at all those guys.
They’re saying they’re detached.
I’m saying that they have a certain hubris about their ability to overcome whatever it is that comes in their way. There’s probably value, I do not want to say pathology, but there’s probably value in the saying, “I dealt with worse, and I’ll be able to deal with that.”
That’s just people who are able to let go and have deep resilience. They’re just operating at a different level. Why do you intelligent people become so skilled at rationalising behaviour that you know isn’t serving you?
First of all, I do not know that they know that it isn’t serving them. They’ve built a story to our earlier point that, in some, I say this a lot, every behaviour that we do works for us in some way, or we wouldn’t do it. That all behaviour makes sense in context. That’s the first foundational principle that I deal with. You, I, and our friends and colleagues, we do not do anything that isn’t working at some level. Now, in the long run, it may blow up in our faces. It may be difficult, but at some level it works. The second reason I think they become so skilled is that the story has such consequences if the rationalization erodes, blows up, or falls apart. They build this.
For example, let’s take an extreme example of those people who are committing a Ponzi scheme or a big fraud or something like that. What ends up happening with them is they’re basically creating this web, a story of pretending, of covering it up, of telling a story to themselves and others, and whatever to keep this thing going. A Madoff story. A scream is a Madoff. Is this the extreme of that pattern of behavior of creating the pretend?
What’s interesting about Madoff in particular, and if you look at documentaries or you look at interviews with people who were in those situations, they will generally say, “I said just one more month, and I’ll get out of it.” This idea of kicking the can down the road and saying, “The tornado, the undertow is getting worse, but I’m almost out of it. If I can just make another hundred, then I can pay that off.” That level of rationalization has to be present in order for them to continue it.
Unless they’re a sociopath, and there is a case to be made for sociopaths, of course, I do not think they do not know that what they’re doing is wrong. They get trapped in a cycle they do not know how to get out of, and the seduction of whatever the payoff is, and that all stays billions of dollars, is so powerful that they cannot disengage from it. The reason that people get so sophisticated is that the payoff is so powerful in holding onto the rationalization that they just build it and build it and build it. When that all falls down, it’s very much a difficult situation.
Quantitative Scorecards: Why Successful Men Avoid Confrontation
Coming back to your client who’s got a successful company and is making these radical, extreme decisions without taking. It made me think. Do you think, for men in particular, success can actually make it harder for men to confront themselves because they have a financial scorecard there telling them, why should I be like what you see right here. It’s a really good version of myself. Look how I’m performing. I’m doing so well. Why are you trying to tell me that I’m pretending, or why I’m not confronting myself? Look how good I am.
It is built on the premise you alluded to, which is how a scorecard is built. Men traditionally build scorecards that are largely quantitative in nature and qualitative in nature.
A hundred percent.
That’s right. I have this many cars, and I have this many houses.
It would be like, “Where am I in my career? What’s my bank account like? What have I created? What have I built? What’s the value?”
A hundred percent. When we get to the intangibles, like peace of mind, a sense of groundedness, there is almost a sense that I have to give this up to have that. This, I think, is a dangerous intersection. I spent years as CEO of a very successful company. I loved the guy. We were ultimately friends, and he played middle linebacker for a major US university. He went to law school. Guys, absolutely brilliant. I used to say the intensity of being a middle linebacker in American football does not have to carry into the boardroom.
You can still, but his scorecard was built on an ethos that said this equals this. Therefore, not so much of this means not so much of this. That is a falsehood that I think we as men live with a lot. We assume an association that isn’t actually one-to-one in the ratio. That is the risk. The thing that they hold on to, we hold onto is, Mike, I understand what you’re saying, but to be less of this means I have less of this. That is the pretending I think that I work hard to say that is not necessarily true.
That’s the wrong equation.
That does not necessarily equal that. We do something with clients called the behavioral experiment where we say, let’s just try to put all of our gadgets and stuff away and go do something you would never ever do because it’s so out of character for you and just be present in that space and see if the bottom falls out of the business. See if the boat doesn’t get to the right guy. Let’s just play in a safe environment so we can start eroding away the extraordinary connector we’re making to something that may or may not be true. That’s why we call it an experiment.
One of your central ideas is that you cannot change what you want to own. It’s very interesting how you frame it. What does genuine ownership actually look and sound like?
Where it starts, and it’s fascinating, right before our interview, I was coaching a woman in this particular case, and she’s an executive in a company. Her entire conversation was about why she cannot do things because of external circumstances. When, in fact, she’s running a division of a tech company that she has complete P and L control over. The first indicator of sound, responsible ownership is to do a fearless inventory and look at what you do have control over. Not what you don’t control. That’s number one.
The first indicator of sound, responsible ownership is to do a fearless inventory and look at what you have control over, not what you don't. Share on XYou’re saying the default position is what people fall into the trap of when they’re not doing something, whether it’s developing themselves or something in business or a relationship, whatever. The default position is to assign that blame. The rationalization is because of an external XYZ factor. It’s because of that person. It’s because of this. The markets are up and down and whatever. It’s something else, not about them.
That’s right. There are two locations of control that we all have. We have an external locus of control, internal location of control. The more we assign or surrender control outside of us, the less agency or power we have as people. The more internal we get, the more we have. You have to be careful because if you move it completely internally, then you do not consider the reality of your circumstances, the difficult market that you may be in. That is, again, pretending. The balance between internal control and external control is very important. I find that people who are extreme in either way struggle with building a world that they’re fully comfortable in.
A healthy, balanced existence.
That’s right because it’s hard for people. It’s so much easier. I have a tendency to be so much. I am not going to hand my responsibility and power over to events, circumstances, and others, but I must every day say that events, circumstances, and others are real factors in our lives. To pretend they’re not would be foolhardy, think.
Trauma As An Ingredient: Explaining Behavior Without Excusing It
Can childhood trauma, a divorce, a betrayal, something that happened, any difficult circumstances or challenges that we had in the past, let’s say, as we’re going through life, can any of those difficult circumstances explain our behavior without excusing it?
I would say they could.
I’m not saying that a person said, “Look, this happened to me, and that’s why that’s not the way I am.” They can be excused for it. It’s more that I’m aware of my situation, and it came from whatever challenge they had, divorce or whatever it is. That’s what I’m working on. They’re not blaming it, but they’re not entirely owning it themselves. They’re assigning that external factor that has brought them there.
I look at it. I’m not a cook. I do not know why I would use a cooking metaphor. I look at it like making a sauce, let’s say a tomato sauce. You’re going to put ingredients in this sauce to get the right flavors, the right texture, the right things that you want. Trauma is that. It is an additive to the life of a lot of experiences, and the extent to which we identify with the trauma, as if that is our identity, is the degree to which it becomes less informative and helpful in the sauce that is our life.
We have to accept it, acknowledge that it occurred, acknowledge that it was real, acknowledge that it informs and influences, much like an ingredient in a sauce, what the outcomes are going to be. Focusing too much on that, assigning too much power to that, I think, victimizes us. To deny it, though, I think, is a removal of something that could be used for understanding to inform how we move forward in our lives. I do not know anybody. What is that quote I saw the other day? The thing about life is nobody gets out alive.
The deeper message is that I do not know a person who tells the truth, who hasn’t had, to some degree or another, childhood trauma, difficulty, or adolescence. You and I have had this conversation before. I’m going to misquote you, so please correct me. One of the things you said the first time we talked, which I think was amazing, was that you cannot really get to where you need to be or want to be as a fully developed male, if not for the gauntlet or the trauma you’ve had to deal with. Is that fair?
I basically said that to get to the place where your work focuses on, which is this like, really understanding who you are, effectively dropping the masks, etc. I would put most people in the world in that bucket. They go through that stage of doing what they’ve learnt from home, from school, from whatever their experiences have been. Not everyone has a hundred percent positive experiences in life. It’s impossible.
They have whatever that relative trauma or challenge, whatever it is, whether it’s in relationships, whether it’s in being shamed, whatever they fear, whatever something that they fear. We all go through it. We all have to go through it to get to the place where you’re asking your clients to get to, which is owning. I want you to really be honest with yourself here and stop pretending because we all do it. We’re all the same. You’re not special. We all do it.
It’s about recognizing what, what is that thing you’re pretending about? Everyone’s pretending about something different. As you said, there are some people who are on one side that they’re pretending they’re better than they are, and on the other side, people are pretending they’re not as good as they really are. You got the full spectrum. I do not think any of us can avoid this process.
It’s more understandable if you can make people conscious of the fact that we’re doing it. I want you to know, given that we’re all doing it, like everyone who’s tuning in, we’re all doing it. I want you to wake up, and I want you to really start thinking about what you are pretending about. Are you pretending every day when you get up? What are some small things and big things? We do it on all levels. Whether it comes out as a little white lie that you’re skimming around or it’s like, there are these people who are making these, like, believing, pretending that things are better than what they are. We all do that.
I think so too. I love the idea that you’re speaking of how it’s the moving through that’s important. Where I think that the challenge is people who get in the middle. I heard a speaker one time say, “Pretend that the difficulties or challenges you’re dealing with are a long tunnel.” You went halfway through the tunnel, and you said, “This is too hard.” You turn around and go back. You’ve traveled the same amount of distance as if you’d just kept going to the end of the tunnel. To turn around partway and go back the way you came, you’ve had the same net traveling distance. I just love the thought of that because some people will get stuck right in the middle of it, and they just do not know.
A lot of people get stuck. I have had people I’ve engaged with in these discussions, people that I’ve interviewed, or even friends I know who have recognized it, gone down the path, but reverted, just regressed back. Just back to deep, obviously, and almost to the point where it’s like, I know, but they’re stuck with what you just said. They recognize it, they see they’re still pretending whether they can,”No, it’s not that bad, is it?”
Comfort Zones And Resistance: Why Understanding Isn’t Changing
It just goes back. That would be quite common. I want to ask you something. How do you deal with someone who is able to brilliantly like what you described before, who is able to brilliantly explain why they are the way they are? That they never actually change. You must have clients like that who are, like, trying to convince you of what you know, what they’re pretending, and they’re trying to sell you on the idea that it’s all good.
I’m like, I’ve got to the place I need to get to where you’re like, “No, there is still that big thing that you’re pretending is not there. That is what I’m trying to coach you out of. How do you deal with those clients who are continuously trying to, like, guests like you will manipulate you to believe that they’ve gotten to the place they need to be at.
I have a client I can think of right now who actually, which I’m curious, Daniel, if this is almost more difficult, who will show up to a session and say, “I did not do it, I know I did not do it, I know I’m supposed to do it, I know this isn’t working, I’m going to get to it.” That is almost more difficult for me as a coach than for the person who keeps pretending, because at least they’re all in on their pretending.
The more we assign or surrender control outside of us, the less agency or power we have as people. The more internal we get, the more we have. Share on XThey’re all committed to their pretending. It’s the ones that are like, “No, I know this is a total disaster. This is a mess. Business could do so much better.” The enemy of it is comfort. I do not think people do anything that, in some way, as I said earlier, benefits them. In a bigger way, people do not change until it’s so uncomfortable that they have to.
Can I say something? This applies to people of all ages and experience. I’ll see a young adult staying in the safe zone because it’s comfortable. I’ll see someone who’s at 50, well experienced, knows better, and will stay in the comfort zone because they just do not want to go through that and a short-term uncomfortable process to come out. As we said before, to go through and realize, “Look where I am now.” That is a bit par for the course, to be honest, in today’s world.
It’s built into us. If we think about it, nobody in their right mind intentionally inflicts pain on themselves. What is a bigger challenge for the thing that I do with my clients that I think helps them do that is I say, let’s pretend we have a structure, and I ask them, “Is it better? Do you hate being cold or hot more?” They’ll say, “I hate being cold more.” I’ll say, “Let’s say it’s just a blizzard and it’s a really bad blizzard, and it’s below zero outside, and you’re in your nice, warm, cozy house. All I want us to do is run to the mailbox, get the mail, and come back to the warm, cozy house.
All we have to do is be in the blizzard for a very limited amount of time. We can retreat back.” Now, what I do not tell them is that I just want them to go to the corner in the blizzard and then a little further in the blizzard. To give people the opportunity to know they can retreat back to the coziness of their pretending or their illusions or whatever it is, I find it helps people be willing to at least go to the mailbox in the blizzard, come back to the coziest, and then go to the mailbox, count to three, go back. The more we can systemically desensitize them to it, “I’m getting used to the cold.”
I always say this when I speak to colleagues. If you think about it like a rectangular box, we all operate within the rectangular box. What I’m looking for is that when I want to push people to move forward and to get better, they optimize themselves and evolve. I ask them, all I’m asking you to do is just to step out of the box, just a little bit, just, and then you can come back into the box, which is pretty much what you’re describing there. Your mailbox. They need to have a sense of what it feels like to be uncomfortable and realize that everything was, “Nothing happened.
The bottom did not fall out. I did not. I wasn’t in pain. I got that. It’s being able to basically train them to be able to feel a little bit uncomfortable and come back, which is just like the realisation that being uncomfortable means you’re actually moving up, not back. Another one I’ve thought about is what about when you get your clients telling you when you’ve got the full read on the picture, and they say, “That’s just who I am.” How do you deal with that? It’s just me. That’s how I operate.
I know the lexicon of things that make my head burst into flames. “This is just the way I am. It is my stuff. I own it.” There’s nothing wrong with people who say that. It is just a surrender to powerlessness.
I have no objection. That’s what that’s telling you when you hear that.
It’s a surrender to powerlessness. This is just the way I am. I say, some people who have a sense of humor, I’ll walk them through, what if, when you were a baby, and you were learning to walk, and you could articulate the process of walking, and you said, “I’m just a crawler. It’s just the way I am.” You would have sacrificed walking because you just accepted that crawling is true. I’m not even judging that the way you are is bad or wrong or dangerous. I have no judgment. I’m just wondering if there is the slightest opportunity just beyond the triangle or rectangle. Is there something just beyond there that you are currently unaware of? Is that just stepping beyond that worth an experiment? Is it worth a shot?
You’re not asking him to change so much as rather you’re saying, let’s just play a game here. Are you willing to even just play the game for a laugh?
I do an exercise called Imagine a world as I call it. I say, let’s imagine a world where this version of you is perfectly fine. You live in a big house, you have a great family, and life is good. You’re an athlete. You’re in good shape. Your doctor told you you’re phenomenal. I’m not saying you’re wrong. This is the distinction that you do a great job of in your work and that I work toward every day. Our job is not to make people’s current state wrong or inadequate. Is more about what else is there. What is just beyond where you currently are? I find that, with men in particular, there is this resistance. I have a client and a friend who I know for a fact is going through a very difficult personal time. I know for a fact, but I will not discuss it with anyone, won’t even mention it.
Why do you think? What’s your opinion?
I personally think it’s because of the image, sort of this image that they want to present to me, that everything’s okay.
I know what they’re doing. The question I asked you is, why do you think he’s doing it? What’s he afraid of? If you were to know that everything wasn’t okay, what would he be afraid of? Is this a friend of yours or a client?
It’s both. I would say a friend and a client.
As a client and friend, okay, from both those roles, is he afraid that you’ll stop being a friend of his? Is he afraid that you do not want to coach him anymore? What is he afraid that you’re going to think a lot less of him? What is he afraid of?
The work that you’re doing about calling men to live more authentic, realized lives. In his case, I think people are connected to me because of the persona of who I am. I’m a successful CEO. I’m very bright. I run a great company, and that is where my value is.
That value, or not just value, but rather that is who I am. He’s attaching who he is, just calling John, like John the man. It’s not about John the man. It’s about all the, let’s call it, nonsense again. Basically, what you’re saying is that he sees CEO success trappings as that’s John. That’s who John is. You guys like John because of those things. Not because of who John is.
This is who John is, and that’s what makes John lovable, likeable, and connectable. In the absence of the persona and the absence of the nonsense, to use your phrase, will I be worthy of, will I be able to measure up to what I think people need from me in order for me to be connected, loved, cared about, appreciated?
Intentions Vs. Behavior: Closing The Fire Escape To Responsibility
I can relate to that. Most people do that. Most people do that. Another thing you say, because you say a lot of things, and I like some of these statements because they make you think. You say, “We do not rise to the level of our intentions. We live at the level of our behavior.” Can you explain what you mean by that? I found that really interesting. I find that people, in a disagreement you’ve had or a conflict you’ve had with your significant other or with somebody at work and they say, “I did not mean to, and/or it was an accident.”
I am feeling guilty about that.
Me too. Somebody bumps into you with their car, and there’s a dent in your bumper, and you get out, and they say, “I’m sorry, I did not mean to. The dent is still in the bumper.”
Be about that in relationships, what you do with your partner. You do something that is not right. Generally, you did not intend to. What you just said is a really great analogy. You did not mean to dent your partner, but there’s a dent in your partner right now. People use intentions as a fire escape from personal responsibility. I use my intent as the fire escape to get out of the conflict or challenge that I have, so that I do not have to stay in the heat and go, regardless of my intention, you were hurt, you were offended, you were whatever. I’m going to own my piece of it. I am not to blame.
It’s not to blame. Am I courageous enough to take responsibility for the debt? That’s where we operate, but we want to try to live up here because it’s so much more pure. It’s so much more beautiful to say, well, “I intended to get you a birthday card and wish you a happy birthday, but I did not.” I intended to. That doesn’t matter. My feelings are still hurt. This is not a case where I have to constantly be self-punitive about making mistakes. Is this freedom? There is freedom in the, freedom in the willingness to own responsibility for what occurred so that I can make it right. I say all the time.
The scenario I just gave you is, say a man and his partner where he’s done something wrong to them, did not intend to, but has left a dent. Your partner calls it out, you’ve left a dent in me or whatever, or what you’ve caused. What is the correct or optimal way for the man to manage a situation like that? Not assigning the blame to the intention, as you describe. I love the way you describe it, the fire escape. I did not mean to. I did not intend to. I do that. It’s terror. How should the man behave? How should the man own that experience?
I acknowledge the fact that despite my intention, you were dented, and I own the responsibility for the dent having occurred. Here’s what I’m going to do differently in the future. Full stop. No explanation, but I really did not know. I wasn’t sure. I did not see you turn in front of me. You know the dent’s there, and I did not mean for the dent to be there, and I’m sorry the dent’s there. The dent wouldn’t be there if you hadn’t stopped so fast at the stop sign. All of that machination that we go through to somehow slow that.
All that noise, and to say “Own it,” and also you’re saying not just own it. You’re saying, “Here’s what I’m going to do so I do not repeat this behavior.” You can only do that once. You cannot repeat it.
No, that’s right.
You’ll lose trust. You said that last time. It’s like blaming the intention.
How many times have we heard people apologize just to get out of the discussion, and the behavior does not change at all? That’s not an apology. That’s an excuse that’s cleverly disguised as an apology. Now, here, if you really want to go nuclear on personal responsibility, this is also terrifying because I will tell you, in my own life, this is very hard for me to ask. Once I say I acknowledge the fact that this is there, I own the fact that I’m responsible in large part for that debt. Here’s what I’m going to do differently in the future.
Is there anything else I can do that would help you know that I am serious about changing this behavior, particularly? I’m sure you have it. I know I have it. I have certain chronic behaviors that I have. When Laura comes up to give me a kiss in the morning, when I’m busy getting ready for work, I almost always turn my head because I’m looking at something, so she can kiss me on the cheek. She pointed it out to me and said, “Do you know that in the mornings when I greet you, and I’m enthusiastic about our morning, you turn your head so I can kiss you on the cheek? I was unaware.” I was horrified.
If I were her, I’d be pissed.
Dude, you do not have to pile on. Come on.
I’ve experienced that.
It is terrible.
I’ve experienced it in reverse.
Somebody is turning their cheek to you. Yes, it’s not good.
In the past, yeah. It’s not nice.
I said, “I hear you. I acknowledge that that is a problem. It’s a bad habit.”
I’m sure you repeated, I’m sure.
Of course, because I’m still not very bright. What I also know is that what I said was, to my point about being more courageous, if I do that, call me on it. Especially in the mornings, when I take my first client at 5:00 or 6:00 AM, she’s on her way to Pilates, and things are happening. I am horrified at my behavior, which I think is the first step, and yet I know my idiosyncratic, dismissive way of being focused needs work. There are certain chronic patterns, I think, where we are fortunate to have people who extend grace to us to continue to.
The Exhaustion Of Performance: Creating Safe Spaces For Men’s Vulnerability
Now that’s a hundred percent. I’m very grateful to my partner. Definitely. She’s definitely extended. It gives me a lot of safety in that sense. A lot of men are performing a version of themselves. We agree that being successful, strong, in control, and happy, everything’s great. How exhausting is it to maintain that character? You just talked about John. You think about what he’s going through. He’s got a lot of personal shit happening in his life. I’ve gone through this myself. How exhausting do you think it is for him, the energy he needs to put up that mask and maintain it, to hide what is truly going on?
It’s mind numbing and I think there is propping up. It isn’t just a single prop up. Physiologically, I think he’s largely driven by anxiety. Most of his pretending is the fear of what will happen. If he doesn’t keep pushing and pretending and doing the thing. He has to prop up the prop to make it all work. The big challenge John has is that he’s a big comparison guy. He compares himself to where he was ten years ago. He would be ecstatic every day. Says he compares himself to where he should be against his peers, and his peers keep moving. He just cannot catch up. It’s a rough cycle for sure. Very expensive emotionally and mentally.
Big time. Why is it that I do not know what I’m doing, or in this case, with someone like John, my life, my personal life, is falling to pieces? Why is it so difficult for a successful man to say?
Back to the persona that we talked about, we’ve got to maintain that persona, or we’ll be less honorable, less invited to the club, fewer friends, that thing. That’s the first thing. The second thing is that vulnerability has largely been extinguished. There’s a crisis in masculinity in that vulnerability is largely shamed. The strength is in many circles considered toxic. Where does a man go to find the place where he really is legitimately safe? I have a client whom I asked the other day, “How are you doing? Let’s just forget work. How are you doing?”
He paused for a minute, and he said, “You’re the only person in this storm that I’m in who has asked me the question.” Here’s what’s fascinating about that, though. He did not answer the question. Just said you’re the only person who asked me the question. Isn’t that interesting? That’s great. I’m glad. Let’s get back to the question. Man, it was like walking in a room with marbles on the floor, and you’re blindfolded. Finally, I said, “On a scale of 0 to 10, how much stress do you feel? On a scale of 0 to 10, how lonely do you feel?” I find that with some men in particular, the quantifiable, more scientific approach.
Saying, “Come inside.”
It makes them die. It makes their personal insight seem manageable and quantifiable as opposed to feeling sad. They’re not going to say that in most cases. If we can help them quantify it, usually it’s a little bit better.
What about you, Mike? Have you ever looked at your own life and realized you’re performing Mike Staver right now rather than actually being the real Mike?
How many times have we heard people apologize just to get out of the discussion and the behavior does not change at all? That's not an apology. That's an excuse cleverly disguised as an apology. Share on XMany times, I find that it’s a lifelong journey back to center. We do a customer survey every year, and we only ask two questions. What are the three words that best describe Mike and your work with him? The second question is, would you refer us to a friend, family member, or colleague? We do a word cloud. Every year, I compare the word cloud year over year. For the last five years, the biggest word in the word cloud has been authentic. When I get it, I take no solace in the fact that they say that. I ask myself, am I really tough?
That’s right.
Right? Is that true? Where’s the line? My clients pay me well to be present for them, not present for me. I am very careful to go. I have walked paths similar to yours without sharing the whole gory details because I do not really need to know that unless we’re having a bourbon or something. The biggest moment years ago, maybe twenty years ago, was when I was coming off of Amelia Island, Florida, a little resort island off Florida where my office was. I was in traffic coming off the island. It was the summer. I realized I felt a burden in my spirit, a burden on my shoulders.
I realized that I was showing up based on the expectations of my upbringing, my family, the world around me. It wasn’t really showing up the way I, what I believed. I was asked a question one time, do you believe what you believe because you believe it, or do you believe what you believe because you were taught it? I remember that question changed my life. It’s a monthly journey for me to keep coming back to center, back to ground. Some people can just be authentic jerks.
Authenticity has to be careful. You have some guardrails because your colleagues and friends, my clients and colleagues, will ask me what I think will be authentic answers. That’s the dumbest. I cannot believe you’d make a decision like that. I’d like to keep a few friends, and I like to keep a few clients. How do we buffer that? I will tell you if somebody said, what are the two pieces of your life’s work?
The first piece would be, if I can help somebody as I travel along, then my life will not be in vain. That’s number one. Number two is, if I could be conscious enough to keep coming back to being a genuine, authentic, compassionate, caring man, full of flaws and all the things, but keep within the guardrails, I think it would have been a life well lived.
Very nice. Most people listening already know at least one thing that they should change. I genuinely believe that they’re pretending and they know, but they’re not changing it. Why do intelligent people confuse understanding a problem with solving it? It’s like, “No, I’m aware.” They do not do anything with this. They think they get something by just acknowledging it.
At the risk of oversimplifying, it’s just easier. It’s so much easier in the short run just to surrender and go, “Yeah. What did the comedian say? My doctor told me if I’d stopped smoking and drinking, I could live ten years longer.” He said, “It’s the last ten, and those are the worst.”
Well played. Have you taken the crazy plunge of writing your own book? I think, how many books have you written up to now?
Technically, this is my fourth, but published books that are still in print, it’s my third.
You’re definitely down the crazy path of writing and publishing. Your new book is called Navigating Crazy. How do little works in an insane world? What exactly is the craziness that we’re navigating in today’s world?
Navigating Crazy: Savoring The Crock Pot In A Microwave World
The noise that’s around us every day, the bombardment of information that is unreliable, the demands and pressure put on us both internally and externally. The pace at which we are expected to live our lives. The experiences that we have every day that we refuse to allow to savor and bake. We largely live in a microwave world when we need to spend more time in the crock pot.
Man, we get a lot of cooking analogies today. I need to spend more time in the crock pot and less time in the microwave. The crazy political anger and bifurcation, you cannot be good if you do not think like me. All of this turmoil. It’s like putting your sneakers or tennis shoes in the dryer, the clothes dryer, just constantly. The challenge, I think, and the reason the title of the book is navigating crazy, not overcoming crazy, is that the crazies are not going away.
People aren’t going to become who you want them to be just because you want them to be. The world isn’t going to slow down just because it’s moving faster than you want it to. What is the thing that we need to be focused on, the things we’ve talked about today? Also, our core values and our purpose anchor us in the midst of that craziness. If it isn’t going away and nobody’s coming with the lifeboat, we’ve got to be better navigators. That’s what the book’s about.
Actually, it’s really interesting. You see, is your thesis there? I’m 52. My oldest daughter is now turning twenty. Am I to be understood as a father today in guiding my kids? Am I to understand that the role that the challenges those kids have today is far greater than the world and craziness that I had when I was her age?
I do not know.
Do you think it’s not that it’s just that you’re just highlighting that it’s always like that, there’s always craziness going on? You’re basically saying it’s like, it’s just you’re trying to impart knowledge on acknowledging that there is craziness, and this is how best to travel through life by being very consciously aware of who you are and what your values are, etc., knowing that there are some things you cannot control.
A little deeper, you have the power of choice even in environments where you do not think so, so clawing back your own sense of agency, your own sense of choice, is a really powerful thing. I dismiss, on the face of it, people who say I did not have a choice. You did. You might not have enjoyed the outcome. You might not have liked it, but you did have a choice.
The book, no pun intended, is a journey or a navigation through a series of things or exercises where you can say, “I can claim my values and my purpose as the anchor, but I also need to learn about personal responsibility and smart choice-making and doing the things that are necessary to navigate it so that when it gets really crazy or quiets down, I know my path and my path is mine to develop.” That’s the best thing you can do for a nineteen-year-old in particular.
I’m going to finish off with one last question, and then I’m going to ask you some rapid-fire questions. If the world remains crazy, which it will, what does a sane man look like inside a crazy world?
The Power Of Sane Boundaries: Protecting Your Choices
The number one thing is good, solid boundaries. Boundaries are the primary indicator of my ability to be able to navigate well. Most people think that boundaries are what I impose on others. That isn’t a boundary. A boundary is what I decide my own fences and my own level are. Somebody is raising their voice at me. I do not get to say, “Do not raise your voice.” I get to say, “I do not want to be in this conversation if yelling is a part of it.”
Close to 50 years to understand the concept you’re just explaining there.
Congratulations.
Most people, and the way you just framed it, was brilliant in that most people see the boundaries as what you’re putting up for others. A lot of them receive it like that, especially when you make that shift, like when you decide and you truly understand what it means to create boundaries for yourself, which is, like, the other cliché is that saying no to others is saying yes to yourself.
It’s really about embracing this concept of putting boundaries for yourself, and it’s not based on cutting out others, but more on what you just said, like the conversations happening, whatever, do I want to be in this conversation? That is your choice, and that is putting up the boundaries, putting up the boundaries for yourself. What happens when you start implementing boundaries if you have not put them up before?
Those people around you are, “What are you doing? You’ve changed, man. What are you doing to me?” “I’m not doing anything to you. I’m just choosing to do it for myself. That’s all that’s got to do. I like you. I want to spend as much time with you.” I do not like to have you in my space right now. That’s not because you’re a bad person or whatever. It’s just choose. I do not want that right now. That’s not working for me. Most people find that very difficult to accept, but also to implement.
They’re not doing it for themselves most of the time. I say to people all the time, particularly men, you do not have to get angry about it. I’m going to start setting boundaries. It’s the most freeing thing you can do. What is most important for me to get clear about is yeses and nos. When most of us say yes to things we need to say no to, and no to things we need to say yes to. If we can get that ratio synced up a little bit better, not perfectly. There are times when I’ll go do something that my wife’s a big yacht rock fan of. I do not know if you have yacht rock in your part of the world. It’s old ‘80s rock and roll music. It’s become a thing in the States.
Yachts rock.
Yacht rock is like a boat, like a big yacht.
Why Yacht Rock?
It’s because apparently they play this music on, I do not know, the guy from the Doobie Brothers, Michael McDonald. His music started, then Christopher Cross, then a lot of those. She’s a big fan. Last night she said, “There’s this big Yacht Rock festival in San Diego. I want to go to it. Would you like to go?”
Can I jump in there before you say anything?
Yes.
Let me try and think about it. What’s going through your head when you’re making that decision? My wife really wants to go. If I went with her, she’d really like it if I went with her, but I really do not want to go because I can not give two shits about Yacht Rock. Actually, if I go, I’m going to get fucking irritated. I really want to do it for my wife, but can I hold off on being irritated by that experience? It’s like you’re going to sacrifice for yourself. That’s a tough one.
You’ve got to have that conversation you just had all inside of less than five seconds. If you wait too long, she’s going to say, “You do not really want to go, do you?” That’s bad.
My response to that is that sometimes you’re going to go, and sometimes you’re not. It’s not going to be all extremely, “Fuck that, I never liked that, I do not want them doing that.” Sometimes you’re like, “It’d be nice to give that experience. It’s not really my thing, but stuff it. I’ll watch the crowd. We’ll go for an ice meal, whatever. We’ll make a thing.” That is a classic. I’m going to ask you, I ask all my guests at the end of every interview, to find out questions.
Great.
The Five Questions: Apology, Pride, And The Legacy Of Letters
Who would you like to say sorry to, given the chance?
My ex-girlfriend, whom I treated like crap when I was going through an extraordinarily difficult period of time, and during the great recession of 2008 and 2012, the business was doing poorly. I lost a couple of real estate deals that I had a lot of money invested in, and she was the brunt of it. She did not deserve it, and I feel terrible about it to this day.
What are you proud of being or doing in your life?
I’m proud of being exactly who I say I am.
Nice. When did you receive kindness while needing it most and expecting at least?
My current wife was my girlfriend. I was at the Four Seasons Resort in Phoenix. I was very depressed. It was right at the end of 2012, so my girlfriend and I had broken up and been apart for about a year. I met Laura, and we were at Seasons Hotel. I was going to speak to a thousand leaders on how to deal with difficulty in their business. I could barely get out of it. I did not tell her that. She just came over, and she gave, I hate hugs, but she gave me a hug, and all of it went away. To this day, she is the kindest, nicest person. I never have to ask. She just shows up on time every time. It’s crazy.
What did your mother or father teach you that you frequently remind yourself of?
My mother wrote when I was thirteen. I’m the oldest of three boys. I was a young mom. She had me when she was twenty. I was a rebellious, angry, frustrated teenager. My mom would write me letters because I was so angry, and she put them under my pillow. The letter said, “No matter where you go, no matter what you do, the boy you are and the man that you will become will always be good enough. While your behavior may need to change, and you may need to change what you do, you will never have to change who you are. I love you without restraint. Love, Mom.”
That is wild.
Is that a crazy story? Daniel, we never ever talked about it. She did it every week for about 4 or 5 months. We never brought it up. I’d like to say I became an Eagle Scout, changed the world, and joined the Peace Corps. I was still pretty much a jerky teenager. Not until I was 32 years old was I speaking, and a woman came up and said, “I’m a single mom. Do you have any suggestions for an angry thirteen-year-old?” I’ll hear that story. I called my mom on the way to the airport and said, “I remember those letters? I wondered if you ever read them.”
She never talked to you about that?
We never talked about it until I was 32 years old.
That is wild.
When I am in a funk or discouraged or tired or exhausted, I just go back. There are times when I’ll get in bed and put my hands under my pillow after a long, exhausting day and remember those letters. That’s what I remind myself of.
That’s beautiful. Final question. Mike, what’s your superpower?
My wife and my mom would say seeing around corners. My superpower is sensing what’s going on with people before they sense what’s going on with them, and being able to understand that. That’s the reason for the practice. We have less than a one percent recidivism rate in our practice, and that’s why people say that I’m very humbled by it. Sometimes I’m scared by it because sometimes I arrive at a place before they’re there, and I have to be very careful about that.
Mike, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
Great conversation. Got a little bit lost in the time, I think. That just means that I was extremely present, and I was, like, plugged into this thing. It was really interesting. Thank you.
It’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me. I’m excited for your work. I signed up for all your stuff online, so I’ll keep up.
Thank you.
Important Links
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- Men’s Anonymous
- Navigating Crazy
About Mike Staver
Mike Staver is an executive advisor, strategist, Speaker Hall of Fame inductee, author, and behavioral observer. He helps people close the gap between the life they are living and the life they are actually capable of. He has spent decades sitting across from executives and others who had everything working on paper and something quietly falling apart underneath.
His work starts with a single observation: people do not rise to the level of their intentions. They live at the level of their behavior. That gap, between what people mean to do and what they actually do, is where Mike works. His new book, Navigating Crazy: How to Live and Work Sanely in an Insane World, takes that same unflinching honesty beyond the boardroom. Earlier book: Leadership Isn’t for Cowards.
